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limits to power

Inspired by another essay that jordan179 indexed -- this one.

In which he observes of Powerhouses -- really, really, really powerful superhumans, a la Superman


All this assumes that the Powerhouse is an ethical being. If he is ruthless and amoral, of course, he simply takes over. There is nothing that you can do to stop him, unless you have other Powerhouses or really good gadgeteers.



Well, given the usual slew of superpowers that such beings have -- they don't usually include mind control.  Or massive multitasking.  It would be kinda tricky.  To steal an observation from Thomas Sowell:  in both Imperial Rome and the antebellum South, a slave-owner would suffer little if anything for killing a slave, and yet despite the extent of this power, slaves in both eras were sometimes paid to do work.

It was the delusion of Communism, too, that people could somehow be made to work.  Assuming that the Powerhouse had needs, there is the little matter of how he could prevent malingering, laziness, theft.   True, he could blast the slothful to dust, but that wouldn't get their jobs done.

Could be elided, fictionally.  In fact, in most fictional kingdoms, it is elided -- as the king is, so is the kingdom.  Like many conventions, it helps move the story along without distractions.

But it would be more realistic to have a character he describes as a Mentalist do it.  Or perhaps a Gadgeteer, who could make lots and lots of any given gadget to coerce people into doing as he wants.

Comments

( 48 comments — Leave a comment )
jordan179
Jul. 22nd, 2012 03:56 am (UTC)
I'm assuming that the Powerhouse is smart enough to use ambitious, disgruntled ruthless people and organizations as quislings. For instance, if I were a Powerhouse trying to take over the modern world, I would probably try to cut a deal with the Chinese or the Terrorist States to serve as my foot soldiers and occupation troops, while I disposed of enemy leaders and heavy equipment with my superpowers.
headnoises
Jul. 22nd, 2012 05:50 am (UTC)
So, the Nazi USSR model. (shoving bits together)
marycatelli
Jul. 22nd, 2012 12:18 pm (UTC)
Neither of which held together for the length of a human lifespan, showing inherent weaknesses that the Powerhouse can't compensate for.
ford_prefect42
Jul. 22nd, 2012 03:21 pm (UTC)
The USSR does show that, but the Nazi model doesn't, the flaw in that system that caused it to fail when it did was excessive militarism. A powerhouse *could* hugely compensate for that lack. Imagine the russian invasion with someone on their side that could fly to the US grain belt, harvest a few million acres *by himself* and deliver it in one trip to the troops besieging Stalingrad.
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 12:59 am (UTC)
Militarism might not have killed it if it had not been replete with duplicated governmental functions, and if its leader had not gotten delusions of grandeur based on how well his first planned attacks went.
headnoises
Jul. 22nd, 2012 03:34 pm (UTC)
By looking at flaws in other horrible sections, they could probably build a model that would work.
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 01:10 am (UTC)
The question is whether the flaws are inherent to the structure.
headnoises
Jul. 23rd, 2012 02:31 am (UTC)
I would like to believe they ALL are, but I'm afraid I only believe that some of them are inherent. Way too many evil groups-- get a culture of evil and you're "set."
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 02:39 am (UTC)
"Out of the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing was ever made."
ford_prefect42
Jul. 22nd, 2012 06:31 am (UTC)
If I were the powerhouse... I would ally myself with the most powerful and controlling entity. I would cry "truth justice and the American way". Because it's *easier* to control from within the already controlling entity. Because it allows one the freedom to simply help the "good guys win". Because it'll allow your abuses to be covered by your good works.

Most of the most successful monsters in history were *beloved* of their people.
jordan179
Jul. 22nd, 2012 06:35 am (UTC)
I see your point, but that way the Powerhouse wouldn't have as free a hand.
ford_prefect42
Jul. 22nd, 2012 06:45 am (UTC)
True. I guess I would be a lazy powerhouse. 90% of the gravy for 1/2 the effort :)
izuko
Jul. 22nd, 2012 10:56 am (UTC)
If you've got 90% of the world, it would be trivial to get the other 10% for even less effort. "You screwed up, so do you join me, or face the other 9/10 of the world... and me?"
marycatelli
Jul. 22nd, 2012 02:09 pm (UTC)
Depends on how much of a headache it brings with it.
izuko
Jul. 22nd, 2012 02:11 pm (UTC)
Even the worst headache can't stand up to carpet bombing.
marycatelli
Jul. 22nd, 2012 02:35 pm (UTC)
The limits of power -- you can annihiliate, but you can't control.
izuko
Jul. 22nd, 2012 04:05 pm (UTC)
If you wipe out a tenth of the population of the Earth, literally decimating world population... I think control takes care of itself.
headnoises
Jul. 22nd, 2012 10:05 pm (UTC)
For a while.

How many folks are killed doing really dumb stuff?
izuko
Jul. 22nd, 2012 10:36 pm (UTC)
Always going to have a few, but I figure this is close enough. Their own community will put them down, so that I don't have to wipe them out.
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 02:35 am (UTC)
They're generaly the short-sighted variety. The question is whether they can cause problems before they are put down.
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 01:17 am (UTC)
In some age groups, it's the leading cause.
headnoises
Jul. 23rd, 2012 02:30 am (UTC)
IIRC, the same ones best known for incredible bravery that changes the course of history.
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 02:37 am (UTC)
Only in rare cases.
headnoises
Jul. 23rd, 2012 03:51 pm (UTC)
Only takes one.
marycatelli
Jul. 24th, 2012 01:55 am (UTC)
The situations where one changes everything it generally change for the worse.
headnoises
Jul. 24th, 2012 02:28 pm (UTC)
Ever tried to game out what happened when Luke took out the empire?

To be fair, the situations where "one person changes everything" usually have a massive number of support folks who just aren't involved in the final step. I figure that's why dictators hate private speech.
marycatelli
Jul. 25th, 2012 12:54 am (UTC)
Lone assassins can effect some things. Usually for the worse.
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 01:15 am (UTC)
It's a weapon that lacks finesse. Draco's code did have the problem that you couldn't escalate punishments.
ford_prefect42
Jul. 22nd, 2012 03:17 pm (UTC)
I don't mean ruling 90% of the world, I mean having 90% of the *fun* of ruling the world. Alligning with the US, and presenting a very very positive front would allow him to have *huge* influence, control even, without having to *administer* anything. It would allow him to have effective command over *hordes* of loyal minions. It would allow him to *abuse* his power pursuing the bad guys du jure, potentially in rather horrendous ways. It would allow him to abuse his power over the "good guys" in horrendous ways because no one would want to believe that of him (sandusky anyone?).

It's the same reason that all the brutal dictators are "socialist". Because everyone that has read their Machiavelli knows that you can get more bad things done as the good guy than you can as the bad.
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 02:27 am (UTC)
It reminds me of a scene in Michael Flynn's Up Jim River where he complains that he tells his ministers what to do, and they nod and don't do it.
marycatelli
Jul. 22nd, 2012 12:21 pm (UTC)
True. What the Powerhouse wants will do much to determine what he gets.
marycatelli
Jul. 22nd, 2012 12:22 pm (UTC)
Well -- who's going to stop him? Nothing to prevent the government from being a democracy punctuated by occasional executions.
marycatelli
Jul. 22nd, 2012 12:20 pm (UTC)
It also lets you out of the paperwork!

(Most successful villainous "take over the world" ploys show the villain rather unhappy actually ruling the world. Sometimes he even limits his resistance to the Resistance because he was happier trying to conquer the world.)
headnoises
Jul. 22nd, 2012 03:35 pm (UTC)
Problem: Americans like to tear down good people who are powerful. The more powerful and the more idealistic, the more they'll be attacked.

If Superman WAS real, he'd have a list of accusations of being exactly what you point would be the smart way of being powerful leveled against him constantly.
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 12:57 am (UTC)
Envy was one of the seven deadly sins long before this country was founded.
marycatelli
Jul. 22nd, 2012 12:17 pm (UTC)
Another term for "ambitious, disgruntled ruthless people and organizations" is "potential usurpers."

Anyway, cutting a deal is not taking over. At most, it is introducing yourself into the current power structure.
headnoises
Jul. 22nd, 2012 03:31 pm (UTC)
....I just realized the "Legion of Super Villains" isn't as corny as it sometimes seems.

Lower level but still superhuman metas would be very good footsoldiers, especially if someone's bright enough to have figureheads.
marycatelli
Jul. 23rd, 2012 12:54 am (UTC)
Of course, you do have to have in-legion loyalty and trustworthiness. A low-level mentalist, or a gadgeteer who could whip up a real truth detector, might help.
headnoises
Jul. 24th, 2012 02:32 pm (UTC)
Do like Bane. Buy their loyalty with license. (Which has the added bonus of making it so that anybody who develops superpowers will be treated like crud, making them ripe pickings for a thug-class.)
marycatelli
Jul. 25th, 2012 12:58 am (UTC)
That's a short term solution, surely. Once they destroy to their hearts' content, who will build new goodies for them? They've executed all the builders.
headnoises
Jul. 25th, 2012 01:08 am (UTC)
Depends on how high class the super villain is; the Kims are on, what, generation three of this scheme?
marycatelli
Jul. 25th, 2012 01:13 am (UTC)
Then you've got to sort out your flunkies, and keep them limited in their crimes.

North Korea is certainly having its problems in generation three.
headnoises
Jul. 25th, 2012 01:29 am (UTC)
I don't think Generation One cares.
marycatelli
Jul. 25th, 2012 02:51 am (UTC)
Yeah, but he was a Soviet flunky up front.
nagasvoice
Jul. 22nd, 2012 08:05 am (UTC)
The history of colonialism provides a pretty close model for the failings and the abuses and the openings for resistance by those being controlled. Most Powerhouses would probably use whatever systems and patterns are already in place, and just juice up the parts they find useful. The minute you try to make people make other people do what you want--at a remove or two or three--you're right back into regular people controlling one another with the threat of backup from a more distant authority. It doesn't matter if it's Superman trying to get laborers to build railroads or the financiers of the nineteenth century, you have to provide incentives and order to make it happen.
marycatelli
Jul. 22nd, 2012 02:10 pm (UTC)
And even Superman would have a real trick trying to ensure that the incentives are right, two or three layers down.
izuko
Jul. 22nd, 2012 10:57 am (UTC)
Not often that you get mind control and Thomas Sowell in the same discussion.
marycatelli
Jul. 22nd, 2012 12:18 pm (UTC)
I wonder why not?
( 48 comments — Leave a comment )

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